"The Vatican said the killing of al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden, a man who sowed division and hatred and who caused “innumerable” deaths, should prompt serious reflection about one’s responsibility before God, not rejoicing.
The Vatican statement May 2 came the day after President Barack Obama announced that U.S. forces had killed bin Laden in an attack on his hideout in northwest Pakistan. In several U.S. cities, the news prompted street demonstrations and expressions of jubilation.
Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, the Vatican spokesman, released a brief written statement reacting to the news.
“Osama bin Laden, as we all know, bore the most serious responsibility for spreading divisions and hatred among populations, causing the deaths of innumerable people, and manipulating religions to this end,” Father Lombardi said.
“In the face of a man’s death, a Christian never rejoices, but reflects on the serious responsibilities of each person before God and before men, and hopes and works so that every event may be the occasion for the further growth of peace and not of hatred,” the spokesman said."
The Catholic Spirit
Again, more political correctness rears its ugly head. Should we reflect on the death of bin Laden and all the things that brought us to this point? Most definitely. But does that mean that we shouldn't also see a victory as a victory? No!
To say that "In the face of a man’s death, a Christian never rejoices..." is just a bald face lie. Sorry, but that's the truth. You come at my family with an intent to harm them and by GOD, I will rejoice if I kill you! Damn it, I'll have a big freakin' party, too!
This is just further evidence of the erosion of clear thinking brought on by the inability to call a spade a spade. Anytime we remove evil, and yes I'll go out on a limb and call bin Laden and his version of Islam evil, we should rejoice!
And if the limp wristed, politically correct namby-pamby Progressives in the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis and the Vatican don't get it, I don't care!
Pope Clement VII was pretty damned pleased when Suleyman was turned back, and that effort definitely cost a life or two. Wasn't he a Christian?
Posts
Isn't it weird that Jesus left behind something that was so intrinsically dysfunctional and vague that dogmatic conflict was both inevitable and instantaneous?
ReplyDeleteThis bin Landen dichotomy is a perfect example, turn the other cheek or take an eye for an eye?
Well you can feel both ways and still be a Christian! I think Orwell had a word for that sort of thing...
When I go to bed tonight, i'm going to thank God for the death of this monster who killed 3000 Americans on 9/11/01. I don't give a damm what wusses like Mark Shea say, some people need killin'!
ReplyDeleteBush got more Americans killed with his useless invasion of Iraq.
ReplyDeleteThis is not political correctness. This is the Popes spokeperson at the Vatican. Are you a Catholic or not? I prescribe St Benedicts 12 steps of Humility as penance for you. Good grief, In your pride your starting to sound like a Jesuit.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.catchingthespirit.net/jsc/ourhumility.htm
I would disagree. This is symptomatic of both political correctness and the feminization of the Catholic Church. This soft and sniveling response to evil is not Christian; it's cowardly. We are, after all, the Church militant.
ReplyDeleteAs far as turning the other cheek goes, is it meant to be a death sentence? Jesus certainly didn't turn the other cheek as He drove the money changers from the Temple with a whip! While it is better to turn the other cheek in most instances, it's not the only option nor even always the best option available to us. Do we or don't we have the God given, natural law right to self defense?
Should we rejoice that a man had to die. No! Should we rejoice that in this mans death a certain evil was taken from this world? YES!
Moses celebrated the destruction of Pharaoh's army. Was he wrong?
"Then Moses and the children of Israel sung this canticle to the Lord: and said: Let us sing to the Lord: for he is gloriously magnified, the horse and the rider he hath thrown into the sea. The Lord is my strength and my praise, and he is become salvation to me: he is my God and I will glorify him: the God of my father, and I will exalt him.The Lord is as a man of war, Almighty is his name. Pharaoh's chariots and his army he hath cast into the sea: his chosen captains are drowned in the Red Sea. The depths have covered them, they are sunk to the bottom like a stone. Thy right hand, O Lord, is magnified in strength: thy right hand, O Lord, hath slain the enemy."
Exodus 15:1-6
And, as you know, this isn't the only example of rejoicing at the death of enemies in the Bible or Tradition.
And yes the Pope's spokesmen made the statement. So what? Is he infallible? Was he repeating the words of the Pope issued ex cathedra? Or perhaps, as I've seen happen before, was he speaking his own words on behalf of the Pope, giving it a slight spin? Even then, just because the Pope says it doesn't mean it's true, just worth listening to. Many Popes have said and done many things that contradict Church teaching.
Regardless, if you can show me the official Church teaching that says it is sinful to rejoice at the death of an enemy then I'll change my opinion. Until then, I Stand by it.
Im back, Im retracting what I said about the Jesuits and if you call this politically correct, well then only the good lord can change your hardened heart....
ReplyDeleteOver at America, Father James Martin -- who ministered to rescue workers and bereaved families at Ground Zero in the days after 9/11 -- reflects on the commandment to forgive our enemies:
Christians are still in the midst of the Easter Season, when Jesus, the innocent one, not only triumphantly rose from the dead but, in his earthly life, forgave his executioners from his cross in the midst of excruciating pain. Forgiveness is the hardest of all Christian acts. (Love, by comparison, is easier.) It is also, according to Jesus, something that should have no limit. No boundaries. Peter once asked him how often he was supposed to forgive. Seven times? “Not seven times,” answered Jesus, "but, I tell you, seventy-seven times.” In other words, times without number. “Forgive your brother or sister from your heart,” he said. ...
Osama bin Laden persecuted, murdered, thousands of men and women in the United States, and is responsible for the death of many servicemen and women. I am glad he has left the world. And I pray that his departure may lead to peace.
But as a Christian, I am asked to pray for him and, ultimately, to forgive him. And that command comes to us from Jesus, a man who was beaten, tortured and killed. That command comes from a man who knows a great deal about suffering. It also comes from God.
If you'll go back to the post prior to this one you'll note that I did pray for bin Laden's soul and mentioned that true justice comes from God, not a gun.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, where in the comment from Father Lombardi do you find any mention of forgiveness? And in my comments I was not referring to forgiveness but to whether Christians can celebrate the death of an enemy. So while I agree that as Christians we should always strive to forgive that really has no bearing on whether or not I can be happy that a bad guy is dead.
This has nothing to do with hardness of heart. I read the words of the statement and accepted them at face value. Father Lombardi's statement is as follows:
"Osama Bin Laden - as everyone knows - has had the gravest responsibility for spreading hatred and division among people, causing the deaths of countless people, and exploiting religion for this purpose.
Faced with the death of a man, a Christian never rejoices, but reflects on the serious responsibility of everyone before God and man, and hopes and pledges that every event is not an opportunity for a further growth of hatred, but of peace." http://bit.ly/iL8Wrc
Please show me in this statement where the good father addresses the issue of forgiveness in anything other than an oblique manner by stating that death should not be "an opportunity for a further growth of hatred...".
Further, how is a statement by a Vatican functionary binding on me as a Catholic? Again, can you point to the Church doctrine or teaching that clearly states or even strongly implies that I cannot celebrate a victory over evil, even if that victory took a life? If not, am I not free to decide for myself, based on my understanding of verifiable Church teaching, whether or not to rejoice in this small yet significant death and the justice it brings, even though it is on the temporal level?
Even your quote above from Father Martin expresses sentiment that is identical to mine; "I am glad he has left the world. And I pray that his departure may lead to peace." In other words, Father Martin is happy he's dead, too.
So once again I ask that you show me the church teaching that says I may "NEVER" rejoice at the death of an enemy. I can't find one and I doubt you will either.
>He drove the money changers from the Temple with a whip!
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's just like killing someone!
And blah blah Moses, thanks for supporting my point that not matter what you want to justify the Bible is there for you thus making it worthless as any sort of map of morality.
>rejoice that in this mans death a certain evil was taken from this world? YES!
Why'd your god put that "evil" there in the first place? I know, I know, he's all powerful and all good but gosh darn it he can't do everything right! And it's really Eve's fault for eating that apple, not sure how that makes sense but we're talking theism so sense need not apply.
How about an Iraqi little girl whose family was gunned down by American soldiers spattering her with their blood? Would she be right in thinking that Bush and America are "evil" and rejoicing at your death?
>Yeah, that's just like killing someone!<
ReplyDeleteNever said it was. just using this one instance to show that being willing to forgive doesn't mean that we have to sit by passively and take whatever comes our way. It's quite possible to act aggressively, even violently towards someone without harboring any hatred. In fact, I would never fight someone if I was emotionally involved. That's a stupid thing to do. Better to lift your fist or a gun when your mind is clear and your actions deliberate.
>And blah blah Moses, thanks for supporting my point that not matter what you want to justify the Bible is there for you thus making it worthless as any sort of map of morality.<
I'm not justifying anything, just showing that it is permissible to rejoice at the destruction of a foe. Since this is an argument within a religious body then don't you think it reasonable to use the documents that the religion uses to build a case? As a Catholic I believe the Bible is true. And since the Bible contains both "turn the other cheek" and rejoicing at the death of an enemy then both are true so we have to figure out how they relate to each other.
>Why'd your god put that "evil" there in the first place? I know, I know, he's all powerful and all good but gosh darn it he can't do everything right!<
God didn't put evil here but He does allow it to exist because we ask for it to exist. We have free will which means we have the ability to choose evil. If we couldn't choose evil, would we have free will?
This doesn't mean we have the freedom to choose evil, just the ability to. We are not free to choose evil, thus we have sin and the punishment due for choosing evil, both on a temporal and eternal level.
>How about an Iraqi little girl whose family was gunned down by American soldiers spattering her with their blood? Would she be right in thinking that Bush and America are "evil" and rejoicing at your death?<
Last time I checked Bush hasn't been president for two years so y'all need to get off that old horse. Would that girl think America is evil? Probably. Would the act of killing the parents been intrinsically evil? I don't know. Regardless of what the girl thinks. What if her parents presented a clear and present danger to the troops? Then they might be justified in shooting and if they're justified then the act probably isn't evil.
Since we're on the subject, what is the benchmark you use to determine good and evil, right and wrong?
>Never said it was. just using this one instance to show that being willing to forgive doesn't mean that we have to sit by passively and take whatever comes our way.
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure that's what the whole cheek turning thing was about; being passive and taking whatever comes your way. See you once again pick and choose the bits that work for you at any given time, when you want to forgive you're just like Jesus, when you want to kick some ass, you're just like Jesus. Jesus is a Swiss Army knife of morality and as flexible as smoke and such just as substantial.
Why a god who doesn't care about money cared enough about money to get mad about how it was being made makes no sense in the light of the collection tray you drop your sheckles in every Sunday but whatever.
>It's quite possible to act aggressively, even violently towards someone without harboring any hatred.
Yes, if you're a psychopath.
> In fact, I would never fight someone if I was emotionally involved. That's a stupid thing to do. Better to lift your fist or a gun when your mind is clear and your actions deliberate.
Yeah, that's easy to say at your keyboard, when you're in the jackpot fight or flight biology takes over and the emotions become as stable as the Japanese nuclear industry.
>I'm not justifying anything, just showing that it is permissible to rejoice at the destruction of a foe.
Do you know any English or writing / journalism teachers / students? Can you please run that sentence past them and ask what the contradiction is? I would try but I don't think you'd listen, best if it's someone looking you in the eye and slowly explaining that yes, you are justifying.
>Since this is an argument within a religious body then don't you think it reasonable to use the documents that the religion uses to build a case?
Since religion is a mess of myth, superstition and the morality of relative savages, no.
See Leviticus if you're confused as to why that's supremely silly unless of course you're prepared to kill homosexuals as your angry sky god commands. Pick and choose, pick and choose.
> As a Catholic I believe the Bible is true.
Really? Even the stuff about Noah's Ark? Say, how did the penguins make it back to Antarctica? From the Middle East they'd have to travel through some pretty hot climates to get there and what about all those South American birds? They flew all that way? I don't think they could make the trip.
> And since the Bible contains both "turn the other cheek" and rejoicing at the death of an enemy then both are true so we have to figure out how they relate to each other.
Hint: they don't, they are diametric opposites and it is only through the sheer power of doublethink that anyone could think otherwise.
Like believing that Noah managed to keep that many animals alive for that long. Heck modern zoos in Canada have a hard time keeping elephants alive in the winter!
>God didn't put evil here but He does allow it to exist because we ask for it to exist.
ReplyDeleteUh excuse me? Didn't you just say the Bible is true? That means your god made EVERYTHING every atom, every molecule, every quark and every quirk, all things real and all thing metaphysical like good and evil.
Even if he didn't make evil he laid the foundation, it's a bit like saying Tomas Edison didn't make the light bulbs we use today therefore he didn't invent the light bulb.
>We have free will which means we have the ability to choose evil. If we couldn't choose evil, would we have free will?
There are people who do evil who have no choice, from the psychopath born without emotion and abused as a child to the schizoid who can't ignore the voices telling him to kill them all before they kill him. Nazi Youth (like your Pope!) who were born into a culture that told them killing Jews was the right thing to do. How about Fred Phelps kids? Fed a steady diet of hate they have no choice but to be evil, after all honor they mother and father right (or is that another pick and choose?)? What choice did the Crusaders have as they sacked Jerusalem in an orgy or rape and pillage? Their Pope told them they were doing a Holy thing. You can't say no to a Pope right?
>Last time I checked Bush hasn't been president for two years so y'all need to get off that old horse.
I'd love to but sadly the images of the screaming child covered in her parents blood kinda sticks with you. Say, you do know that the war is still going on right? That Iraqis are being blown up every day? No, I suspect you, like most Americans, have lost interest in all that bad news. Unless you can chant USA! JESUS SAVES! USA! JESUS SAVES! USA! JESUS SAVES! it's no fun.
>Would that girl think America is evil? Probably. Would the act of killing the parents been intrinsically evil? I don't know.
Well they did drive up to the checkpoint a little fast and they were pretty Muslim so they probably deserved it and oh well, they're in Hell now aren't they?
>Regardless of what the girl thinks. What if her parents presented a clear and present danger to the troops? Then they might be justified in shooting and if they're justified then the act probably isn't evil.
No?
http://merryabla64.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/tel-afar-blood-covered-girl.jpg
Looks pretty evil to me and they weren't justified in shooting because the American soldiers weren't justified in being there in the first place.
That's a fact but like I said they're all Muslims, you're god hates them and will see that they're tortured forever and ever for their crimes of not believing as you do.
You realize your god is pretty much like Saddam or any other dictator? He demands obedience and complete orthodoxy of thought even when it flies in the face of reason. It's so bizarre that your worship such an insane creature.
You seem pretty quick to label a variety of things evil. Based on what?
ReplyDeleteWe create evil when we make a free will choice against God. God allows us free will and in that respect He allows evil to exist. He does not create evil but I suppose you could say he created the foundation for its existence when He created creatures with free will.
ReplyDelete>Even if he didn't make evil he laid the foundation, it's a bit like saying Tomas Edison didn't make the light bulbs we use today therefore he didn't invent the light bulb.<
ReplyDeleteWhat the hell are you talking about?
>It's quite possible to act aggressively, even violently towards someone without harboring any hatred.
ReplyDeleteYes, if you're a psychopath.<
No, only if you are older, at least emotionally, than 12. If you can't control or completely remove emotion from a tough confrontation, whether physical are psychological, you'll most likely lose every time.
This is the same reason I can say that I'm glad bin Laden is dead and in the same breath also say that I pray that he gets to heaven. I don't hold any personal animosity but I do think he needed to die.
>Do you know any English or writing / journalism teachers / students? Can you please run that sentence past them and ask what the contradiction is?<
ReplyDeleteI did better, I asked my wife who has a degree in English communications and your right, I made a mistake. I meant to say excuse, not justify. Oh well, even I can be wrong once a day.
>There are people who do evil who have no choice, from the psychopath born without emotion and abused as a child to the schizoid who can't ignore the voices telling him to kill them all before they kill him.<
ReplyDeleteOK, I'm going to do my best here to be more charitable than you usually are. You were commenting on these sentences: "We have free will which means we have the ability to choose evil. If we couldn't choose evil, would we have free will?"
You said, "There are people who do evil who have no choice..." So, Socrates, if they have no choice how can they choose? If they do evil through no fault of their own, because they had no choice, then "they" haven't done evil, "they" haven't sinned. I tried to keep it simple so you would understand and I typed it reeaalll slowly, too.
But if it still seems just a bit too complex maybe you can find some "English or writing / journalism teachers / students" to help you out.
>and your right<
ReplyDeleteYes I know, "you're right". Man, two mistakes in one day!
"As a Catholic I believe the Bible is true.
ReplyDeleteReally? Even the stuff about Noah's Ark?"
This is Kathy- Yeah, the Noah's Ark stuff is true. Remember, that's why there are no more unicorns.
Just in case you don't know about the unicorns:
ReplyDeleteThe Unicorn Song (words and music by Shel Silverstein), perhaps made most famous by the Irish Rovers, was about how the mythical unicorns missed their place on Noah's Ark because they hid from Noah, "playing silly games." An excerpt:
The ark started moving, it drifted with the tide
The unicorns looked up from the rocks and they cried
And the waters came down and sort of floated them away
That's why you never see unicorns to this very day
You'll see green alligators and long neck geese
Some humpty backed camels and some chimpanzees
Some cats and rats and elephants, but sure as you're born
You're never gonna see no unicorns
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2010/20100628.htm
>You seem pretty quick to label a variety of things evil. Based on what?
ReplyDeleteTheir cause and effect. For instance there have been countless cases of Catholic officials raping children over the past... well could be hundreds of years really and rather than have them arrested and brought to justice and the children cared for both mentally and physically the Vatican simply moved the rapists around and told the children if they spoke of their ordeal they'd be sent to Hell.
>We create evil when we make a free will choice against God.
1) Once again, no, your god according to that silly book made everything, therefore he made evil.
2) A child raised as a Muslim, never exposes to Jesus gets sent to Hell for that crime, where was the "Free will" choice?
I notice this is a point in your religion that you never seem to address. Your god's idea of free will is "do as I say or I will torture you forever" that's not actually freedom much less moral.
>suppose you could say he created the foundation for its existence when He created creatures with free will.
I could suppose to say that because that is what happened according to your mythology.
So your god created evil with his plans, wonder why a good god would do that? Couldn't he have made a plan that would avoid the whole talking snake / magic fruit / suffering business?
>What the hell are you talking about?
Um the thing the point that you just agreed to? That your god created evil by laying its foundation?
>No, only if you are older, at least emotionally, than 12. If
Wow, you don't watch the news much do you? Well Terminator unlike you the rest of humanity is cursed with adrenaline and emotions and the two can be a potent mix in certain conflicts that can result in poor future affecting choices.
>I pray that he gets to heaven.
Once again, what's the point of prayer? If it's the right thing to do hasn't your god already done it? It's bizarre to no end that you and your kind offer pleading advice / commands to your all-powerful / seeing god. It's just as weird you telling him how great he is, think he knows dude! He made everything, including bin Laden and made sure that he'd have all the life experiences that would lead him to 9-11. Or did bin Laden choose his radicalization? Did he choose the geopolitical history of the Middle East and Afghanistan? Did he choose the CIA to come on over and teach him and his buddies how to kill Russians? You do know that America supported the proto-Taliban in the 80's right? Charlie Wilson's War tells that story but I would recommend the book, movie is bit of an over simplification.
Oh which by the way a crime that hasn't been proven so I'm not glad he's dead, capturing him for trial would have been the right thing to do but hey, you can't chant USA! USA! USA! in a Christian bloodlust quite the same way.
>You said, "There are people who do evil who have no choice..."
ReplyDeleteI'll be even slower, you seem to think evil is a choice, like every door has "good" and "evil" clearly ladled and we stand in front of them, give it some thought and make our choice. I know as a theist you must keep things simple but reality is a tad more complex. The mentally ill are just one example.
For example most schizoids are harmless (a few even have positive voices!) and can manage their condition, the violent ones are rare and often they too can manage their conditions with meds. The problem is they feel normal on the meds, so normal they think "Why am I taking meds?" and stop.
Then they hop on a Greyhound and cut some guy's head off and chew on the remains.
Evil results, where is the evil? Where is the choice? Your god "intelligently designed" his chemically imbalanced brain right? See evolution allows for such ghastly flaws and decent god does not unless that god is in fact entertained or otherwise enriched by crazy people doing horrible things.
Right now in America you have slums where children are born into complete poverty, thanks to tax cuts the social services can't keep up, they grow up in crime infested nest where their choices boil down to victim or victimizer. Sure they know on some level it's wrong to deal crack but they've never been shown any other options. Their teen parents were gangbanging and it's the only thing that's kept them safe (relatively) and food on the table.
Evil results to be sure but where is the evil? Society letting it all go down? Is that where the choice is?
America was a slave nation, justified by the Bible, men, women and children were tortured and abused for the economic benefit of a wealthy few. It took a bloody war where hundreds of thousands died to free them into second class citizenship followed by another 100 years or oppression abuse and injustice that is still going on.
So was the whole South evil? Every man woman and child who stood under the Stars and Bars? What was their choice? Did they go to Hell? Did they appeal to your god by pointing out that the Bible has a whole section on how to own a slave?
HI Kathy, I'm not sure if that's actually an argument on the vast engineering and biological challenges presented by the story of Noah's Ark. Another one is if the Earth was covered from top to bottom in water where'd all that extra H2o go? Every drop of water (save teh stuff that was lost in various space programs in orbit) that has ever been on Earth is still here, it doesn't go anywhere so where'd it all go after the flood? See it would be an awful lot, I mean enough to cover Mount Everest right? Which brings us to the next problem, that much water would have put the Ark so high in the air that most of the animals and people would have died of exposure and lack of oxygen.
Are you sure it's not just a myth? It certainly has all the hallmarks of one or is everything in the Bible true?
Even the bits about demons being the cause of sickness?
Oh and Iraq, so if that little girl grows up and then one day sets off a bomb in Grand Central Station because it's the only way to silence the screaming that will probably never stop echoing in her mind would you say she was evil? Would you demand an invasion of Iraq in retaliation? How about all the children dying in Iraq because of its shattered infrastructure? I know you don't care as much for the born sort of babies but surly their dying because of dirty water and lack of doctors is evil and that blame is laid squarly at the feet of America's invasion for WMD that never were.
ReplyDeleteHow about Colin Powell? He lied to the UN, straight up lied! Helped start the war, how evil is that?
Then again all those dead Iraqis are mostly Muslim and your god hates Muslims for not accepting Jesus as saviour so I suppose from your point of view it's all good.
>Their cause and effect.<
ReplyDeleteSo? What if I think the effect is good? Is your opinion more valid than mine?
Since you claim that there is no absolute, that we live in an world that exists in a constant evolutionary flux, how can you label anything evil?
>I notice this is a point in your religion that you never seem to address. Your god's idea of free will is "do as I say or I will torture you forever" that's not actually freedom much less moral.<
If I were to follow your belief system to its logical conclusion I would have to say that I am free to murder, because again it would just be one of many valid choices, an exercise of my free will with no penalties attached.
But we know I'm not free to do that. I have the freedom to decide to murder (even making the decision to murder is not a freedom I posses in the Catholic faith, but I digress). But I don't have the freedom to murder. If I did there would be no laws against it and it would be immoral for anyone to stop me from doing it. The same is true of theft.
You might say that this is true regardless of the existence of God. I'd say that if there are no moral absolutes, a condition which requires an absolute lawgiver, then there could not be any absolute restrictions on my actions. Murder, or at least an act you define a murder, might be a bad thing now but perhaps we'll evolve beyond that, making the act a subjective, not objective evil. I might believe murder is good, you might not. Who should be the judge?
You could say society or government because they should defend the common good. Really? Common good based on which absolutes? Again, in your world that's nothing more than force being applied to restrict my freedom, not justice or morality based on absolute law.
>He made everything, including bin Laden and made sure that he'd have all the life experiences that would lead him to 9-11. Or did bin Laden choose his radicalization?<
Yes, God made everything and yes bin Laden made the choices that brought him to his end. I don't believe in predestination and neither does the Church.
>Oh which by the way a crime that hasn't been proven...<
Since bin Laden admitted to ordering the attack on a tape he made in 2004 I suppose I'll just take him at his word.
>I'll be even slower, you seem to think evil is a choice, like every door has "good" and "evil" clearly ladled and we stand in front of them, give it some thought and make our choice.<
One more time - if a person cannot recognize the difference, for any reason, between good and evil in the choices they make then they can't be held accountable for them. And no, the choice isn't always simple, or even readily apparent. But, to the extent that what we can see is knowable, and if we choose to do an evil act knowing that what we are doing is evil then we are going to be held accountable.
Why does that seems so wrong to you?
>Then again all those dead Iraqis are mostly Muslim and your god hates Muslims for not accepting Jesus as saviour so I suppose from your point of view it's all good.<
ReplyDeleteYou really need to do just a bit of research into the thing you so clearly hate and stop basing your opinions on what others say or write about it.
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
>So? What if I think the effect is good? Is your opinion more valid than mine?
ReplyDeleteWhen it's demonstrably correct, sure.
>Since you claim that there is no absolute,
Where do I claim that?
> that we live in an world that exists in a constant evolutionary flux,
We do in the context of the universe's existence, if you look at everything that's happened in the past 14 billion years and ahead to next it is however in our sub-atomic scale lifetimes it's a much more stable affair.
>how can you label anything evil?
Again, cause and effect. Two men having consensual sex, getting married and living a life together is not evil. A priest raping a child and the Vatican saying if the child talks about it he's going to hell is evil.
This really isn't hard.
>If I were to follow your belief system to its logical conclusion I would have to say that I am free to murder, because again it would just be one of many valid choices, an exercise of my free will with no penalties attached.
I can never tell if this sort of obtuseness is deliberate or not.
Murder is wrong, it's against the law, the penalties are server and is not a valid choice.
And I don't need a god to write that down for me, it's pretty self-evident. Even societies that never heard of Moses figured it out.
>I might believe murder is good, you might not. Who should be the judge?
Everyone, murder is clearly wrong; it's instinctive to the human mind.
>Common good based on which absolutes?
Um, they've written this stuff down, we have a whole system, are you really unaware of it? Maybe watch the first season of "Law and Order"?
> I don't believe in predestination and neither does the Church.
I know but it doesn't change the fact that if you god is all knowing he knows all cause and effect so it doesn't matter what you and your church believe in if you believe your go to be omnipotent. If your god made creation that he knew what it was all going to lead to and thus responsibility lies on his doorstep for everything; evil included and the "free will" argument it bollocks. One can have free will without evil, freedom would still exist, heck probably more of it.
>Since bin Laden admitted to ordering the attack on a tape he made in 2004 I suppose I'll just take him at his word.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying he didn't do it, of course he did it, he's as guilty as OJ, I'm saying it hadn't been proven.
Law and Order dude, you really need to check it out. Don't go past season 5 though.
>and if we choose to do an evil act knowing that what we are doing is evil then we are going to be held accountable.
>Why does that seems so wrong to you?
Because once again, evil is not always obvious. If you were brought up a good Catholic in Germany in anytime from 1200 to 1945 odds are you would have been taught to hate and fear the Jews. You would have been told that they drink Christian blood, that they ferment war amongst the gentiles for profit and you would believe it because that's what everybody knows. So killing them wasn't murder it was justified self-defence.
So, would you be evil?
This is another example, the slavery in the South same deal, where was the evil?
>"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Uh huh:
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." - Jesus Christ
Or does the Pope override Jesus? I know the Pope can do some pretty cool things like closing limbo or having children (watching the Borgias, great show) but can he really re-write Jesus?
While Muslims recognized Jesus as a prophet they consider it akin to blasphemy to call him a messiah or demigod and there is only the one way, the Christ way right? Everything else is just not good enough otherwise what's the point?
See that's every religion must declare themselves the only truth lest they be regarded at immaterial.
You don't abide with Jesus you burn up in fire that is the word of your god is it not? You can argue with me but you can't argue with him now can you?
Your god throws every one into fire for not believing his ridiculous story and you worship this creature why again?
I'm not saying that there'll be Muslims in heaven. And neither does the Church. What I am saying is that I don't know who'll be there, just that they'll all be Catholic when they arrive. And I know, you don't agree. Oh well, different strokes.
ReplyDeleteI do have serious reservations about the way that Islam is accepted as springing from the same root as Christianity. But then I suppose that my reservations are no greater than those held by my Orthodox Jewish friends regarding Catholicism.
Also, the fact that God knows which choices we'll make doesn't mean that we aren't still making the choices.
>What I am saying is that I don't know who'll be there, just that they'll all be Catholic when they arrive.
ReplyDeleteAnd that is a fraction of the total population of the Earth meaning that your god makes people burn. Rather wasteful no? Strange, your god can make a whole universe yet can't communicate with his own creation to make his clear how it wants to be worshipped.
Isn't it weird how Muslims think they're the only ones and Jews and Mormons and Protestants and so on? Lucky you! You're right and they're wrong... but hold on... they think they're right for the exact same reasons you think you're right.
Are you sure that you're not all wrong? I mean that's the only conclusion that makes sense.
>I do have serious reservations about the way that Islam is accepted as springing from the same root as Christianity.
I know, it's a fact and when you are confronted with facts that don't jibe with your delusions you get all kinds of reserved, so much so that it's pretty obvious your not going to address my other points.
But here's another one for ya; all religions come from older religions. Just as Christianity was the evolution of Judaism combined with Roman paganism Judaism came from even older superstitions of the Egyptians; the first culture with a recorded religion. Of course before them you had the whole "Mother Goddess" thing but it's hard to gauge how much of a religion that was in the context we understand.
Isn't it weird that there were all these gods before yours? I wonder what it was doing all those thousands of years with no mortals telling how great it is?
>Also, the fact that God knows which choices we'll make doesn't mean that we aren't still making the choices.
Sure it does, it's a bit like a saying a train has a choice when really all it can do is follow the tracks. Like Jesus must have know how horrible it would all go for his church, the wars it would start, the misery and pain it would spread, the genocide of the American aboriginals for instance. I guess he was more concerned with people telling him how great he was than all that.
Still have to ask why such a fevered ego would be worthy of praise.
Oh. Right. He'll torture you forever if you don't, bit of a battered wife aren't you?